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In Defense of TNT Duplication
#1
Brick 
Good day fellow Vanilla High residents, I am here to make a formal request for something which most people already know my stance on. That is, I would like to formally request that the rule banning TNT duplication be revised. In the following post, I will try to outline why I think that it would be beneficial to allow this.
 
 
As far as my personal perspective goes, I like, as many of us do, building high-output mob farms. As I am a perfectionist, for as long as I have known about the spawning radius (mobs spawn in a 128-block radius sphere around the player) and other mob spawning mechanics, I have been digging perimeters, which until the advent of observers meant digging millions of blocks by hand.
For those who do not know, a perimeter is basically a giant hole down to bedrock whose sole purpose is to remove all available spawning space for mobs around the player. When a mob farm is built inside a perimeter, the only available spawning space for that player is in the farm. This means one can get extremely high rates out of the farm in question. The other side effect of a mob farm in a perimeter is that the only loaded entities are inside the farm, meaning that there is no lag from entities around the player – this is great for obvious reasons especially on a server like VH where lag is a common issue.
Now, although it is possible to dig the 4+million blocks that need to be removed to make a proper perimeter out by hand, this process takes a very, very long time. Even in an ideal scenario (instamine, server running at a consistent 20tps), mining 4 million stone blocks would take 200,000 seconds, which is equal to roughly 2.3 days. While this might not seem like a lot, that is assuming there is no obsidian, ore or any other non-instamineable block in the entire area, not to mention liquids which must be cleared, and that tools never need to be repaired. Realistically, it takes an amount of time closer to 7-10 days for a minimum size perimeter (257*257 blocks) – which is something between 160 and 240 hours doing only mining and tool reparation.
 
The above explanation is the reason for which most players making perimeters use world eaters to remove all of those blocks. A world eater is essentially a giant flying machine whose only purpose is to destroy a specific area of land as quickly as it can possibly be destroyed. This is achieved using flying machines dropping TNT in order to destroy a single layer, followed by another set of flying machines which crosses the recently destroyed area in order to remove the liquids (as they prevent TNT from destroying blocks). The entire machine then moves down a block, and does the same thing again over and over, until it reaches the bedrock layer.
World eaters, in an ideal world, would use dispensers to dispense the TNT required to destroy the blocks in question. However, since in Java edition dispensers cannot be moved by pistons, this is not a feasible solution. It is for this reason that TNT duplicators are used to drop the TNT, as they are mobile.
Using a world eater, it is possible to make a perimeter in a time amounting to something around 12 hours if one is able to keep all of the machine loaded at once and just AFK while it blows things up – this does not include the building time for the machine, or the time required to amass the 8800 slime blocks, 6000-something pistons, and countless Redstone blocks required to build one for the perimeter size mentioned earlier. Realistically it’s more likely to be something like 2-3 days, provided the world eater doesn’t blow itself up.
 
Now, even if one agrees that TNT duplication has a positive benefit as far as large excavations go, there are a number of arguments that I have in the past seen brought up against the use of it.
1. Duping ruins the server economy: It must be noted that TNT duplication is completely different from any other type of duplication possible in Minecraft.
TNT duplication is generally rather uncontrollable, and for it to produce items it would require building something like a quarry, which moves blocks layer by layer above a collection system and then destroys them without killing the items. This literally requires tens to hundreds of thousands of slime blocks and pistons depending on size, and requires dozens of hours to build, and also takes over an hour to displace a single row of blocks.
Further, TNT duping does not duplicate the TNT item, rather the entity, which it is impossible to turn back into an item, so it’s not possible to use TNT duping to increase the number of TNT blocks in one’s possession.
 
2. TNT duping can be used by griefers to sow destruction: Let’s be honest here, if a griefer is going to use TNT duping to destroy something, they’re going to use it regardless of whether it’s allowed or not, since they likely know they’ll be banned anyway.
 
3. TNT duping illegitemizes the efforts of those who actually craft TNT: Well, this is true to some extent, as duping removes the need to craft stacks upon stacks of TNT. However, actually crafting TNT still has some huge benefits over duplicating it, since it allows for more control, and removes the risk of your flying machine going backwards and blowing up your builds because you placed a block in the wrong spot.
 
4. I make perimeters don’t use TNT duping so why should other people? If you have a massive team of players working to help you dig out chunks, good for you. Most people don’t however, and that shouldn’t prevent them from making perimeters.
 
 
TL, DR: Mob farms are best built inside perimeters, which also reduce general entity lag massively. TNT is the only feasible way to not spend hundreds of hours doing nothing but digging when making perimeters, and duping is essentially moveable dispensers.
It is also virtually impossible for TNT duplication to ruin a server’s economy since the process of effectively using it to generate blocks is almost more time-consuming than mining manually.
Please see the rest of the post for more detail.
 
 
I am happy to address any criticisms regarding the proposal of legalizing TNT duping, and would really appreciate that my post not be prematurely deleted or closed simply because it addresses a touchy subject.
Have a nice day everyone,
Frodo
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#2
Tl;dr. No.
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#3
I personally do understand the use of TNT dupers on the server However yes you may argue that its a glitch and not a part of mojangs intentions but due to the fact of the server being pure vanilla and with minimal lag support doing this properly with dispensers filled with TNT would very likely at the minimum cause severe lag and more likely completely crash the server

I personally do believe that TNT dupers should be allowed but with strict rules

Here are some of my ideas for the rules

1. The player MUST explain to a admin on his/her plans to use the TNT duper and construction design

2. A admin MUST verify the build before using it and see if it would be possible to use a alternate method other than TNT dupers

3. The duper should only be used for legitimate purposes this includes: mining, cleaning areas, flattening land,ETC. It should not be used for: Griefing, wars, bullying, threatening other towns,ETC
FoxiTheDragon's best friend rawr
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#4
The answer is still no. Duplication of anything is explicitly prohibited. This will never be allowed.
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#5
(10-09-2020, 10:47 PM)VHStaff Wrote: The answer is still no. Duplication of anything is explicitly prohibited. This will never be allowed.
Dear VH Staff... sigh...
I assume that you still have not read my post... if you had, you might have realized that the only reason I created this thread in the first place is that I feel that the rule surrounding TNT duplication in particular should be revised.
Reminding me of the rule does nothing other than attempt to prematurely suppress discussion, since I obviously know the rule - I am requesting that it be revised, after all...

If you wish for me to stop bringing this up, I request that instead of constantly trying to shut down discussion, you bring forth an actual concerted argument in favor of your point, that makes it clear beyond a shadow of doubt why the rule should remain as it currently is.

I am happy to explain to you how one constructs a reasonable argument to support a point, if that is necessary.

I thank you for your time,
Have a nice day,
Frodo.
I am a Hobbit. You do not want a Hobbit working against you. Sauron learned this the hard way.
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#6
I did not read your post, and I am not required to. The answer is no, no matter what your reasoning. If you want to do these things, find another server that allows it. We do not, and will never allow duplication of anything, regardless of intention.
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#7
FrodobagginsTNT

We have not removed or deleted your post. Vanilla High staff have in no way shut down you discussion, it is right here for anyone to read and reply to if they wish and that includes staff.

Our rules are here https://vanillahigh.net/rules/

This rules state no duping of any type, there will be no change to the rule.

I realize you feel strongly about the subject and you wish Vanilla High to change this rule. I am sorry you feel so strongly that you are being suppressed and that you are not being treated fairly. If this is truly the case my only suggestion is that maybe its time you found another server to play on you would feel more comfortable on.

I personally am happy to have you here and play on Vanilla High, it is why I gave you only a one week ban.

It is your decision where you go, we hold no one here against their will but I hope you stay a valued member of our community.
[Image: Carl_71.png]
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#8
(10-10-2020, 11:31 AM)Carl_71 Wrote: FrodobagginsTNT

We have not removed or deleted your post. Vanilla High staff have in no way shut down you discussion, it is right here for anyone to read and reply to if they wish and that includes staff.

Our rules are here https://vanillahigh.net/rules/

This rules state no duping of any type, there will be no change to the rule.

I realize you feel strongly about the subject and you wish Vanilla High to change this rule. I am sorry you feel so strongly that you are being suppressed and that you are not being treated fairly. If this is truly the case my only suggestion is that maybe its time you found another server to play on you would feel more comfortable on.

I personally am happy to have you here and play on Vanilla High, it is why I gave you only a one week ban.

It is your decision where you go, we hold no one here against their will but I hope you stay a valued member of our community.
Thank you for your reply, Carl. The reason that I feel that "VH Staff" is attempting to suppress discussion on this is their initial reply to my post. I could have gotten a better worded reply from a toddler. I have looked at almost every post on this forum, and have never seen anything that conveys an amount of disrespect similar to that which has been conveyed by that single post. 
I believe that it does effectively suppress discussion, because anyone reading this thread will see it, and likely decide that there is no point contributing since it will never come to anything.

As far as I am concerned, I am asking for something quite reasonable, that being for those replying to at least skim my post, and not reply unless they have something to actually contribute to the discussion. This 'VH Staff' person does not fit those criteria so unless they would like to actually show enough respect to read my posts, I would appreciate if they would stop replying unless they decide to remedy that.

I do genuinely like this server, as far as the player community goes. Replies like the two-word response I received, on the part of a member of staff, staff who are supposed to be impartial and 'handpicked' for their quality by other staff, however, are as far as I am concerned absolutely unacceptable. How am I supposed to trust the staff of this server to do anything if there's a chance that I could just receive a response like that? 


Further, I fully understand that TNT duplication is banned, but unlike item duping there is no obvious reason for its banning, and since no reason is provided, I do as a technical Minecraft player feel entitled to an explanation, one that is better than 'it's the rule, there does not need to be a reason provided.'

I also feel that the refusal of staff to provide an actual response on here is due to the fact that my argument in favor of TNT duplication is strong enough that it is difficult to argue against on a rational basis. 
I am legitimately curious to see whether anyone, staff or otherwise, can produce an actual defense of the rule that shows it to be reasonable.

To those reading this, please feel free to contribute to this discussion, provided that you actually take the time to read the posts in the thread beforehand (yes, VH Staff, this means you). 

Have a nice day everyone, and PLEASE DO NOT REPLY IF YOU HAVE NOT READ MY INITIAL POST FIRST.

Frodo

P.S. For the record, I don't believe that the rules should publicly state that TNT duping is allowed, as that would lead some people to assume that they could dupe items too, which could lead to chaos and a ruined economy, I just believe that it should not be prosecuted unless it is used for a nefarious purpose such as griefing.
I am a Hobbit. You do not want a Hobbit working against you. Sauron learned this the hard way.
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#9
I understand your why you'll want to try the duplicate TNT but can't you just in list a trusted town and pay them to do the farm with you by hand?

I have to side with the admins here duplication can have damaging results for the economy and server community as a whole. I've seen the damage first hand on the first map of VH in 1.8 when it was allowed in limited capacity, hence the outright ban of it from the second map in 1.9 and onwards. Its not worth it and I believe most of the players on the 1.8 map will back the admins on this very subject. Besides being hard to police and control. Its not worth the hassle.
Formerly TinyC.
His Royal villager Builder of Twinningham (NPC Town)
  Reply
#10
Couple of points Frodo,

1) This is a private run public server by staff that give their free time to being polite to condescending posts like this one telling them how to run their own server.

2) You are MORE than welcome to execute this build on a server that allows it OR your own server OR a private world of your creating. Stop trying to manipulate the staff here helping with your agenda.

3) We have rules that have been decided on over years of tests and running this server. These will not change because one player is unable to understand the reasons for these rules.

4) If you genuinely want an open conversation about this kind of thing try listening to the answer you receive rather than bulling ahead with your opinion.

5) Get yourself a beacon, and a few people that like to dig... and go dig. Stop wasting your energy creating dissertations on a moot point.

6) Comments like this "I am happy to explain to you how one constructs a reasonable argument to support a point, if that is necessary." will not curry favour and will never get positive responses.

PLEASE lets move on and stop giving us all a headache about this dead subject.
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